Ingrid Poulson

Ingrid Poulson

Ingrid Poulson
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Here's a fact: One in four relationships in Australia will be scarred by domestic violence. It's a subject tinged with shame and too often kept out of sight. Not for Ingrid Poulson. Three years ago her estranged partner killed both her children and her father, before killing himself. She believes the system that should have protected her family let her down and now she's trying to change it step by step to spare others the hell she's been through.

ANDREW DENTON: Please welcome Ingrid Poulson.

ANDREW DENTON: In the late ‘90s, Ingrid, you were teaching English in Thailand and you met Neung. What was it that first attracted you to him?

INGRID POULSON: He was a very sweet and gentle person and quite persistent. I ended up falling in love with him.

ANDREW DENTON: You moved back to Australia. You had your daughter, Marlee. What were your aspirations for your life together?

INGRID POULSON: I was actually thinking of going back to Thailand and teaching English over there, bringing up my daughter in Thailand in the Thai culture. I had maybe a vision of going back and forward between Australia and Thailand. But once I had my daughter in Australia and she was became such an entrenched part of our family and my family here, I really felt like I wanted to stay.

ANDREW DENTON: Did you have any sense of the man who was to come?

INGRID POULSON: No, not at that point. He was a really lovely father and still such a gentle, unpresuming person really. 

ANDREW DENTON: After the birth of your little boy, Bas, the cracks started to appear in your relationship. What was it that made you realise that you couldn’t live together?

INGRID POULSON: We’d been having problems for a while that turned around differences between us, but the final straw was violence. He started to become violent. There was one night in particular where he started to throw things around the room and it was while the children were in the room and I just thought that’s unforgivable. So I barricaded myself in the room and left the next day.

ANDREW DENTON: He didn’t take the estrangement well, did he? He rang you persistently.

INGRID POULSON: He did.

ANDREW DENTON: When did what appeared to be harassment move to something more threatening?

INGRID POULSON: He had spoken threats on the phone, basically, I guess, to intimidate me into coming back to him. But I went to work one day and came back and there was a letter on the windscreen of my car which stated that he was going to kill me and himself. 

ANDREW DENTON: His behaviour became more erratic after that. Can you explain what happened when you went to pick up the children after an access visit one night?

INGRID POULSON: He basically tricked me into coming into the house by saying that he had cooked dinner for us and that it was ready. When I went in there was no dinner and he started to beg me to come back and cry and crawl around on the ground and say that he’d set up the flat for me to come back. I was not interested in this and I actually made a move to the telephone to call my father to help come and mediate, because I felt like it was getting out of control and I didn’t like him behaving in that manner in front of the kids. At that point he went into the kitchen and took off his jacket and said, “There’s 6000 thousand dollars in my bank account - it can pay for my funeral,” and picked up a knife and went to go at his throat. Because the kids were with him in the kitchen, then I raced around and basically wrestled this knife off him and calmed him down. I wanted to take the children and leave, but he said, “If you take Marlee, then I’ll do it. I’ll die right now.” So I took my son and left and called the police.

ANDREW DENTON: Marlee was four. She must have been very distressed?

INGRID POULSON: Yes, and that’s what I found so unbelievable, was that he would behave that way in front of - they’re so young, the kids.

ANDREW DENTON: When you called the police they saw it more as a case of Neung trying to harm himself. They were concerned for his welfare. Why did they not see it as a domestic violence issue?

INGRID POULSON: That’s the million dollar question. When I called I said that he had threatened suicide and the operator said, “Well he hasn’t hurt you, has he?” I said, “No, but he threatened to kill me last week,” and she apparently, at that time, should have put it over as a domestic violence call but didn’t. When the police came it was pretty obvious that it was a domestic case. It was an estranged husband and wife and two children, and yet they took it as a concern for welfare, which meant that they only had to attend to Neung’s needs, and I took my daughter and walked out of there and didn’t hear from them again.

ANDREW DENTON: They didn’t enquire as to your safety or whether you needed protection?

INGRID POULSON: No. No.

ANDREW DENTON: So you decided to take out an AVO?

INGRID POULSON: I did.

ANDREW DENTON: You must have felt extremely pressured and torn?

INGRID POULSON: I was, because this was the father of my children. I felt a lot of responsibility towards him, very protective. I knew that he didn’t have family here. He was extremely distressed and, yes, I felt very guilty that I had kind of forced this situation on him as well.

ANDREW DENTON: Were you optimistic that the AVO would protect you?

INGRID POULSON: Yes. I walked out of the court and I thought, “Fantastic; I can now be free of this emotional burden.” I just remember going to the supermarket and walking around and thinking, “Oh this is fantastic,” and then ring, ring. He rang. Almost within an hour of the orders being…

ANDREW DENTON: Of it being issued?

INGRID POULSON: Yes, that’s right.

ANDREW DENTON: And breaking the AVO of course?

INGRID POULSON: Breaking the AVO.

ANDREW DENTON: He also came round to your house.

INGRID POULSON: That same day.

ANDREW DENTON: That same day, and then he rang persistently after that. Is that correct?

INGRID POULSON: He did, yes. After he came round to the house I reported the breach to the police. 

ANDREW DENTON: And what did they say?

INGRID POULSON: I should point out that there’s a factual dispute here. The police believe that I didn’t report a breach. I believe that I did. I was advised that there was an official and an unofficial way to do it, and the official way would be to go down and grab Neung and throw him into jail that night, or the unofficial way was to go round and just explain to him that he was breaking the law and perhaps look a little bit threatening, I guess.

ANDREW DENTON: Warn him off?

INGRID POULSON: Yes, that’s right, and that’s the option that I took.

ANDREW DENTON: Just going back to this idea of whether you officially made a complaint or not. You definitely rang the police and spoke to them.

INGRID POULSON: I actually, at the time, was really distressed so I had my father call and he reported a breach of an AVO by his son-in-law, and the telephone operator has that record that he did call and say that.

ANDREW DENTON: So why is there a suggestion that this wasn’t made?

INGRID POULSON: The police that came maintain that the breach was not reported.

ANDREW DENTON: What would you like the police to have done at this point? Would you have liked them to have stepped in further?

INGRID POULSON: Yes. It wasn’t up to me. Throughout the entire period I just felt so responsible. I was the one calling. I was the one putting Neung in jail. I was the one that had all of the orders placed, and it came at an extremely emotionally disruptive point anyway. My family was breaking up. My kids were distraught. I was trying to work and bring in the money. So I was really not coping too well with the whole situation. Then for the police to come in to not - I mean they didn’t even sit down to take a statement. They just stood there and kind of said, “Well, what’s all this about?” To not be listened to, all of that kind of thing, it felt to me like they didn’t want to know about it. I felt they definitely needed to step in at some point and take the responsibility off my shoulders.

ANDREW DENTON: A couple of weeks after the AVO was issued, Neung broke into your house. He tied you up and raped you, and then he begged you to kill him. You managed to talk him down and he left. Then you rang the Rape Crisis Centre. What happened?

INGRID POULSON: The Rape Crisis Centre suggested that I called the Domestic Violence Office, or domestic violence officer at the police station. Up until that point I had never heard of a domestic violence, or a Domestic Liaison Officer. I did call the police station, but apparently that person worked part-time and they weren’t in. 

ANDREW DENTON: So you spoke to another officer?

INGRID POULSON: I did.

ANDREW DENTON: And what did he say?

INGRID POULSON: Well, luckily I got someone that was an extremely good police officer and I started to explain about how my partner had breached an AVO and I wanted to know what to do. I wasn’t sure whether to pursue the rape case because I was just not wanting to make too many decisions at that point. At some point I was worrying about Neung and where he was and what he was doing and this officer said — and I’ll never forget it — he said, “With all due, with all due respect, ma’am, I don’t care about him, I care about you and what I can do for you right now.” 

ANDREW DENTON: That was the first time you’d heard that from someone in authority? 

INGRID POULSON: Mm’hm.

ANDREW DENTON: What happened next?

INGRID POULSON: He offered to come round and he offered to bring a female officer with him as well. I agreed to that, so they came round and started proceedings to collect evidence of the rape.

ANDREW DENTON: And they suggested you go to the hospital. 

INGRID POULSON: They did.

ANDREW DENTON: And you left Marlee and Bas with your dad.

INGRID POULSON: I did. 

ANDREW DENTON: And when you were at the hospital, that was when Neung attacked them. You came home to find your dad and your children both killed and Neung had fatally wounded himself. When you look back now, do you think anything could have stopped Neung in the frame of mind he was in?

INGRID POULSON: There was some talk at the time of putting me into protective custody when they realised what had happened to me. I never would have believed he would have harmed the children. If they had told me point blank, I just wouldn’t have believed it. Somebody said to me at one point, “Well he would have found you, he was absolutely so determined.” So I don’t know what really would have stopped him. He had told me previously that he would hunt me down if I ever left and I believed it. Initially, after he raped me and he left, my first instinct was to throw the kids and everything in the car and just leave, but I just remembered, “No, he’ll find me. He will.”

ANDREW DENTON: That must be the most awful feeling.

INGRID POULSON: Yes, because the kids were involved, and I was really - I know it sounds impossible, but I was really just trying to keep some level of normality and stability in my family for my children. So to have this person acting in this really aberrant way and, you know, it’s daddy behaving in this way, I just wanted him to at least behave himself around them.

ANDREW DENTON: It doesn’t sound impossible. It sounds like what a good mother does. Over the last few years since this happened, you’ve been very careful not to lash out at the police. You’ve tried to lobby them and work with them to change the system. What are the changes you most seek?

INGRID POULSON: Okay, domestic violence needs to be taken out of the cupboard, really, and looked at for what it is. 

ANDREW DENTON: Which is?

INGRID POULSON: It’s people caught in a situation they don’t feel that - they can’t really get out of. It’s kind of this hidden sort of secret and if the police start to take a stance on it, “Look, this is a crime and if you report this crime, then you will be protected. You will be looked after. We will do the right thing and this person will be punished.” If that comes in, that’ll be fantastic. I believe there are changes already about AVO laws. I’m hoping that there isn’t a gap between when that person is served with an AVO and they are fully aware of the fact that you’re serving an AVO against them, until the point where it goes to a magistrate, because for those two or three weeks, however long it takes, you’re completely unprotected.

ANDREW DENTON: Do police need better training about how to emotionally handle these situations?

INGRID POULSON: Yes, very much so.

ANDREW DENTON: What do they need to know?

INGRID POULSON: To listen, to sit down, to validate, to let you know that what you are expressing in your fears are real and true. At least be aware of the fact that this is a serious crime, in that violent behaviour very, very rarely is redeemable. If someone uses violence once, they’re not going to go back to not using violence, that kind of thing, that things can escalate. If the police know this, then perhaps they can pass on some of that concern or use that knowledge to better exercise their powers when protecting someone.

ANDREW DENTON: One of the frustrations police have is that domestic violence is not a black and white area. There are many causes and often they find, when they go to a situation where a woman may have been assaulted by a partner, she doesn’t want to press charges because that’s her partner. Do you understand some of the difficulties that police face with domestic violence situations?

INGRID POULSON: Absolutely. It still doesn't mean that they cannot press charges, that they don’t follow up. If you’re in that situation it’s very difficult to be objective and, like, I was motivated out of care, I was motivated out of love, I was motivated out of trying to protect him. I’m sure a lot of other women are as well. The police kind of have to have more of an understanding of that. It’s not like you’re motivated out of hatred and a need for revenge to report your partner, so that’s what you’re dealing with. You’re right; it’s not a black and white area. It’s very messy.

ANDREW DENTON: Your mum, Janice, is here. Janice, as you sat through the inquest into these murders, what did you think as you saw the police explain it from their point of view?

JANICE POULSON: Well, I thought it was one bumbling episode after another. From the wrong classification at the first incident, to the time when the two came to interview Ingrid and her dad at the house, the day after the AVO had been taken out, and he just walked into the flat, played with the kids, refused to leave, even when Cheryl, Pete’s widow, asked him to leave. He said, “I don’t care what they do to me. I’m just going to come and play with my kids,” and all that was reported to these police, who seemed to think that they could get away with saying that they were just going there for an educational talk to Ingrid and her dad to explain what an AVO was all about, even though there was a recorded thing at that station saying that it was an AVO breach, by Pete. They obviously hadn’t followed any of the correct procedures if there was a breach of an AVO being reported. They didn’t take notes, they were very brief, and they were offering Ingrid that out, about not taking it seriously and going to talk to Neung.

ANDREW DENTON: And why do you think that was their attitude? Is it what Ingrid’s saying, that domestic violence is either too hard or something that’s misunderstood within the police?

JANICE POULSON: Well, I think so. I think it’s partly that. But I think also it’s what one of the police officers said to Ingrid, “It’s just a bunch of crap paperwork.” You know, when they get a domestic violence call or they know they’re involved in a domestic violence incident, that they’re going to have to do lots and lots of paperwork. So I think that with these police, I’m only guessing, that they had not followed the correct procedures. They’d jumped into their cars, they’d gone out, they hadn’t looked at previous incidents and what had led up to it. They completely missed the escalating violence, the absolute disregard of the law that Neung was showing by then, and they had to cover their tracks. It seems as if the investigation afterwards, when something like this happens, I sort of said I think it should be educative and reparative, you know, that they need training and education about this, not pinning those police to the wall and grilling them. Then they sort of tend to cover up, because it’s their careers on the line, and I think that’s what happened with these two. 

ANDREW DENTON: Ingrid, as your mum just said, you want the process to be educative, not punishment. Are the police hearing you? Are you, do you believe, effecting any change?

INGRID POULSON: Finally, yes. It’s taken a while, but they’re being very open now to the kinds of suggestions that our family has made to the coroner. I’ve been invited in to chat to them and play a future role, perhaps, in some kind of Steering Committee about domestic violence.

ANDREW DENTON: ‘Steering Committee’ always is a scary term to me, because that sounds like more paperwork.

INGRID POULSON: Yes. 

ANDREW DENTON: Steering Committee, Steering Sub-Committee, Vice President in Charge of Steering Sub-Committee in Charge of Sub-Committee. In terms of actually effecting change, what is it you hope to achieve and what do you think is actually achievable?

INGRID POULSON: Certainly focusing on training right from the start, having a more open attitude towards domestic violence. There are some legalities that involve the AVOs that can be changed fairly quickly. I think it’s just so slow and you can’t afford to be slow with things like this. You can’t afford to go out and investigate why it’s all going wrong and what’s happening. You just need to really change it now because there’s just so much at stake.

ANDREW DENTON: Emotionally, how do you put your life back together again after what happened?

INGRID POULSON: I don’t know if you ever do. I certainly think you just grow around it a bit. You can’t ever fill in that space or pretend it didn’t happen or disregard the lives that were. 

ANDREW DENTON: Janice, you must be very proud of Ingrid. Are you surprised at her strength?

JANICE POULSON: Well, yes, I am. I mean, she was a stunning mother and, I thought, a wonderful wife as well, and it just ended so badly there. But I’ve seen her really pick up her life and make something of it. I think that was partly, too - I remember her saying to me that when she saw her children dead and her father, she said, “I’m going to honour my children and my father for the rest of my life and make something of it for them.” I think that’s given her a lot of strength. But I think, yes, she has been very strong and doing amazing things now, absolutely amazing. 

ANDREW DENTON: Ingrid, to people watching tonight who may be in a domestic violence situation, is there any advice you could give them?

INGRID POULSON: Speak out and make sure that your voice is heard. If you do have an AVO, make sure that the police that come round enforce it. The only way people are going to respect this instrument is if they are punished for what they do with it. 

ANDREW DENTON: Look, you’ve truly honoured your children and your father, tonight. Ingrid, thank you.

Source: http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1751835.htm